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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Topic: Ransomes Marquis MK 2
    Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 4:43pm
 Time to start a long awaited project.decided to have a change from the norm,and introduce some variation to my small collection. Here i have an 18 inch mower,fitted with a Clinton Gem engine,which is a 400 series.these where not produced for long as the later Marquis had the F12 Sloper Engine fitted.
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 4:54pm
 As always we try to get projects under way fairly quickly as you never know whats around the corner,i.e maybe some thing interesting shows itself and off we go again. Today after having a torential down pour,no drought here forum members,have had a partial strip down ready for a steam clean and then a possible shot blast if required. Mowers are a doddle to strip so within just over half an hour we had this assorted heap of parts.
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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steve d
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Quote steve d Replybullet Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 8:55pm
hi john now i m dreading doing the ransomes 24 knowing your doing this one as yours will no doubtably be up to the usual standard just means i ll have to up my game   and i know i ll have fun as not stripped one for many years now but looking forward to it none the less   good luck with it mate i will be watching with anticipation and asking how you find the time at the july get together
colwood register
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Quote charliesfergy Replybullet Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 9:10pm
Hi john one tip to get the cylinder looking really good is to clean and get the metal reasonably smooth and paint with whatever colour then have it ground/sharpened. looks like brand new. ill find a picture of my suffolk i restored somewhere
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Quote Dieselhead Replybullet Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 5:48pm
For you guys restoring mowers who need the cylinders ground I can help out if required.
 
Just brought my 2nd grinding machine which I have yet to collect
 
Also have a shot blast cabinet to clear the rust away 1st
 
Just need to fine tune it all before I post some pis of it all
Chris. I aint getting on no plane. Fool!
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 7:08pm
well done for letting us know. when you get set up  pm us. thanks
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 5:57pm
Have now started the painting,and realy,there is not much there to paint. i have issues with the exhaust silencer,it has rotted the box and end off so with the help of the manual i have made a new replacement and have this to weld on and drill in some holes to let fumes out. the chain guard cover has been in battle with eithher a garden wall or possibly a rockery so that has had to be beaten out and filled all over.
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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hortimech
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Quote hortimech Replybullet Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 6:33pm
You really shouldn't have painted the top clutch shaft yet. To make it easier to refit the bearing into the clutch flywheel you need to slide the drum down the shaft. This makes it easier to see what you are doing, also it is easier to fit the bearing into the flywheel first and then get the shaft to go back into the bearing, easier said than done. 
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 7:32pm
thanks for the tip hortimec,this paint which you see is only the first coat so as you say about the bearing alignment,its not a problem paint wise as it will get more yet. while i have you please can you give me the right procedure for setting up the brakes inside the drum.have not quite got a clue as how its done. many thanks john.
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by hortimech

You really shouldn't have painted the top clutch shaft yet. To make it easier to refit the bearing into the clutch flywheel you need to slide the drum down the shaft. This makes it easier to see what you are doing, also it is easier to fit the bearing into the flywheel first and then get the shaft to go back into the bearing, easier said than done. 



There speaks a man of experience! Another tip - lubricating the rear rollers. If you can get anything through the nipples accessed through the holes in the roller halves use only oil (sae 50) as grease dries out, blocks the nipples and stops the rollers moving freely on the shaft. If the rollers are seized on the shaft take care with how you attempt to free them - they are cast iron, quite fragile and if still obtainable, outrageously expensive!
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 7:53pm
thank you these mowers are a whole new ball game to me. many thanks again
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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hortimech
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Quote hortimech Replybullet Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 9:49pm
By the "brakes inside the drum" I take it you mean the centrifugal clutch shoes, if so, do nothing. The springs hold the shoes in until you rev the engine, the shoes then throw out and grab the inside of the drum. Note of warning: do not run the engine as it is with the shoes on unless they are covered by the drum.
You just need to ensure that the engine ticks over as slow as possible without stopping and then when the throttle is opened, it revs easily without stalling, you do not need to run the engine at full rpm when using this machine (or you will have to run with it!).
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:25pm
ho ho hortimec, you have a good memory about the running saga. i hope that it does not set off a megga argument like last year. Ouch
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hortimech
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Quote hortimech Replybullet Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:46pm
I certainly hope not I'm most amused today!

When you come to rebuild the machine, you are going to need a tool to undo the clutch centre to adjust the chains, I will have to find mine, take a photo of it and then post the picture and measurements for you.

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hortimech
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Quote hortimech Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 4:32pm


As I promised, here is the picture of the clutch tool, all dimensions are approx, as measured with a tape. I am sure you will get the idea.

main bar 170mm x 25mm x 8mm

length of pins 50mm, first step 25mm, second 15mm, third step 10mm
diameter of pins, first step 15mm, second step 8mm, third step 6mm

distance pins apart 30mm

If you look into the front of the landroll clutch, you will see two holes. The tool goes in there and you turn it to untighten the retaining nut, just undo it enough to allow the clutch to move.
You must first have the machine fully built and the cutters set before adjusting the chains, you move the clutch about to get the best tension on both chains then retighten the clutch. You may find it easier to remove the outer clutch body first ( just undo and remove the the 3 nuts and springs ).
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daviddale
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Quote daviddale Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by simar kid

 Time to start a long awaited project.decided to have a change from the norm,and introduce some variation to my small collection. Here i have an 18 inch mower,fitted with a Clinton Gem engine,which is a 400 series.these where not produced for long as the later Marquis had the F12 Sloper Engine fitted.[IMG]http://www.tractorbox.co.uk/forum/uploads/20120421_164312_clinton_engined.jpg" height="600" width="800" />

Well, at last Simar kid, I've had one of those "square" tanks for a long time, I really thought it went on an early Qualcast, or did it? Anyone know for sure? David.
Regards, David.
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 8:49pm
hello david. the red square tank is like you say,this was fitted by someone who pre owned this machine. i was surfing the dreaded last year and found an original,which was a shock to the system.even if it had cost me say £ 50 i would have had to pay it because there are not many about.
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by hortimech



As I promised, here is the picture of the clutch tool, all dimensions are approx, as measured with a tape. I am sure you will get the idea.

main bar 170mm x 25mm x 8mm

length of pins 50mm, first step 25mm, second 15mm, third step 10mm
diameter of pins, first step 15mm, second step 8mm, third step 6mm

distance pins apart 30mm

If you look into the front of the landroll clutch, you will see two holes. The tool goes in there and you turn it to untighten the retaining nut, just undo it enough to allow the clutch to move.
You must first have the machine fully built and the cutters set before adjusting the chains, you move the clutch about to get the best tension on both chains then retighten the clutch. You may find it easier to remove the outer clutch body first ( just undo and remove the the 3 nuts and springs ).
  thanks for that very usefull info on the adjustment tool,will have to take measurements to our local engineer and get a price on the making of one.
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 8:54pm
some how my reply to this post has managed to follow on to hortimecs reply with tool diamentions.
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by simar kid

Originally posted by hortimech

[IMG]uploads/20120427_163353_Tool2.jpg" height="225" width="300" />As I promised, here is the picture of the clutch tool, all dimensions are approx, as measured with a tape. I am sure you will get the idea.main bar 170mm x 25mm x 8mmlength of pins 50mm, first step 25mm, second 15mm, third step 10mmdiameter of pins, first step 15mm, second step 8mm, third step 6mmdistance pins apart 30mmIf you look into the front of the landroll clutch, you will see two holes. The tool goes in there and you turn it to untighten the retaining nut, just undo it enough to allow the clutch to move.You must first have the machine fully built and the cutters set before adjusting the chains, you move the clutch about to get the best tension on both chains then retighten the clutch. You may find it easier to remove the outer clutch body first ( just undo and remove the the 3 nuts and springs ).
  thanks for that very usefull info on the adjustment tool,will have to take measurements to our local engineer and get a price on the making of one.
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 9:27pm
The clutch tool is still listed part number LCG1491 £23.77 + vat so unless your local man does it at mates rates it may be better to buy one!
They say you learn something every day - in years of playing with mowers and 30+ doing it as a business I've never seen a Clinton on a Marquis only on a Mercury. I believe that I am right in saying (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that the Sloper was designed specifically for Ransomes. Was told that the specification was for an engine of xHP that would fit into a given cube - hence the sloping cylinder and the wedge shaped fuel tank.
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 28 Apr 2012 at 7:31am
hi wristpin. strangely enough,yesterday evening i went to a grounds care shop just to have a snoop around and see if there was anything that might interest me for restoration.i came accross a lawn or green spiker with spikes on it like spear heads. the chap who took me around pointed this out to me and he knew what it was but had no knowledge of the engine.i gave him an informative talk on the villiers f12 sloper engine and he was totally amazed that i knew so much,in fact he told me in so many words that i would be of great value to the company. mmm ,looks like there may be a bus mans holiday on the horizon.     going back to the gem engine.......could i possibly then have a rareish piece of kit here ? would be nice to think i had something extra special in my collection.
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 28 Apr 2012 at 9:53am
Exhaust has now been restored as the manual shows.holes drilled as best as i could with my small hand drill.and now its looking more complete. will be starting on the flywheel cover later but need some photos of graphics so they can be reproduced at the end.
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 1:14am
Any chance of a pic of that spiker/aerator?
The quality of your paint finish looks terrific, is it ordinary machinery enamel or two-pack? All in the preparation no doubt!
In passing I think that you may have the clutch shoes on the wrong way round with the free ends facing the direction of rotation (leading), Pull them off as a pair with the springs still connected and replace them so that the pivot ends lead - I was told that they should be installed that way for a smoother take up.
When "driving" a machine with that centrifugal clutch you can drop the plate clutch at tick over and then accelerate the engine to take up the the drive. When you get the hang of it you need never use the plate clutch other than when emptying the box or parking.
Your "small hand drill" looks an interesting bit of kit.
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 7:44am
hello wrist pin.the paint which i am useing is a polyester based brushing enamel. a local company in Ripon makes this and many other fine paints and varnishes. i was told that the paint which i use was developed for mainly trains and commercial vehicles. it has a high gloss finish and can withstand bug and bird damage at 150 mph. now i know that this mower has a high top speed,in fact it can make you run behind it without red lining,so i am sure that the finish would withstand any pet or rabbit collisions in the garden.   going on to your observant and helpfull mention of the brake set up,you are totally correct and i thank you for the great imput which you have made available to our club.this will be corrected and whoever fitted them previously was a bodger !!     i will go back to the site of the spiker and get a couple of pictures this week. it could weigh up to half a ton plus at a guess,and it even has a road type trailer to move it around with it.   now the small hand drill is quite versatile,because you can remove the chuck and put in SDS drill bits and also you can use it as a concrete breaker. this was on offer at our local Homebase for £50. just had to have it,you know what us lads are like.
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hortimech
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Quote hortimech Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 9:36am
Sorry wristpin but you have got it wrong, the clutch shoes are the right way round. You would think that the clutch would work better the way suggested, but every auto-certes/marquis/mastif I have seen is setup as the pictures above and I have seen hundreds in my working life.

simar kid, who is the manufacturer of the paint? 
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 9:53am
Originally posted by hortimech

Sorry wristpin but you have got it wrong, the clutch shoes are the right way round. You would think that the clutch would work better the way suggested, but every auto-certes/marquis/mastif I have seen is setup as the pictures above and I have seen hundreds in my working life.simar kid, who is the manufacturer of the paint? 


Can only say that the info came from a Ransomes service rep! However if you think back to the days when cars had leading and trailing shoes in drum brakes the theory makes sense.
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hortimech
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Quote hortimech Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 10:07am
Yes, the theory is ok if you are talking brakes but we are talking about a clutch here. I first came across ransomes clutches when I started work as an apprentice lawnmower mechanic back in 1973 and every ransomes clutch I have seen since was fitted as in the pictures above. Every now and again, someone in the workshop would ask if the clutch was fitted right and after checking with other machines, would have to agree either all the machines we had where wrong or they were fitted correctly. 
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 10:46am
Originally posted by hortimech

Yes, the theory is ok if you are talking brakes but we are talking about a clutch here. I first came across ransomes clutches when I started work as an apprentice lawnmower mechanic back in 1973 and every ransomes clutch I have seen since was fitted as in the pictures above. Every now and again, someone in the workshop would ask if the clutch was fitted right and after checking with other machines, would have to agree either all the machines we had where wrong or they were fitted correctly. 


So be it, but the theory, as explained to me, was that fitting them so that the pivot end leads gives a smoother, more controlled take up. Never tried a live comparison and in a working situation the difference, if any, is probably not detectable!
The plot thickens!!!
Just had a look at the illustrations in some Ransomes parts books and all the pics for older Mastiffs, Matadors, 24s and Sloper and BS Marquises show the shoes "my" way but when it comes to the later Marquis 45,51,and 61 machines "your" way!!!!
Honour satisfied?!
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Quote Andy Frost Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by hortimech

Sorry wristpin but you have got it wrong, the clutch shoes are the right way round. You would think that the clutch would work better the way suggested, but every auto-certes/marquis/mastif I have seen is setup as the pictures above and I have seen hundreds in my working life.simar kid, who is the manufacturer of the paint? 



Correct ,I can confirm what Hortimech says, I worked for a Ransomes dealer in my youth , we had a County Council contract whereby we had absolutely loads of Ransomes stuff in.

Andy.
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Quote pauldg Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by wristpin

fitting them so that the pivot end leads gives a smoother, more controlled take up. Never tried a live comparison and in a working situation the difference, if any, is probably not detectable!


I did a comparison of the two ways of fitting the clutch shoes a few years ago...

Leading edge fitting (as shown in simar kid's pic) does give a slightly snatchy uptake if you don't file the edge of the shoe first but it gives a controllable and positive action if this is done.

Trailing edge fitting works lovely in the workshop or on demo BUT leads to huge slippage in a working situation - put any sort of load on though (say cutting some grass) and you are replacing shoes every service, if not before.

My conclusion was to always fit leading edge style and file the edge to prevent the shoe digging in to the drum (unless a manual specifically states otherwise).

Cars that had leading AND trailing shoes in a drum only had them so the brakes worked going forwards and backwards... If you want the most efficient drum brakes in one direction only then TLS (twin leading shoe) is the way to go, just don't expect to stop if you go backwards!
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 12:50pm
hi hortimec. the paint supplier is  T & R WILLIAMSON paint and varnish works ripon. n.yorkshire. all my restorations have been painted by brush with this type of paint. can certainly recomend it,as no doubt in its fool proof application.
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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simar kid
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Quote simar kid Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 12:56pm
well this thread is getting to a stage now where i am confused. it is not that i will be cutting hardly any grass as it is only a showing item. would i be okay just putting them on either way ?
Not sure whats wrong. i think we will let it develop
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wristpin
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by simar kid

well this thread is getting to a stage now where i am confused. it is not that i will be cutting hardly any grass as it is only a showing item. would i be okay just putting them on either way ?


Clutch shoes - In which case it is of no consequence!
Paint - Your'e obviously very skilled with a paint brush to achieve that level of finish - I hate painting! My Marquis 18 and 20inch and Twenty Four are all mechanically "perfect" but in their original paint - consequently I conserve rather than restore.
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Quote pauldg Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by simar kid

well this thread is getting to a stage now where i am confused. it is not that i will be cutting hardly any grass as it is only a showing item. would i be okay just putting them on either way ?


I'd say leave them as they are but run a file over the ends of the friction material to remove the sharp edge... That way, they are fitted correctly and if you have a funny five minutes and want to cut some grass it'll work properly.

If you turn them around you run the risk of them rubbing the drum on low engine speeds (even if it's a show thing I expect you want it to work?) and overheating the drum - I'm sure we all know what heat does to paint...
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