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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Topic: Norton Engined Trusty
    Posted: 07 May 2012 at 12:40pm
Hello all,
 
Have just become a member of this forum as I thought it was about time that I set about restoring my Dad's Norton engined Trusty.  Below are some photo's of the tractor:-
 
 
 
 
 
As you can see, it is currently in bit's, having suffered some form of transmission failure several years ago.  Up until then, it had been used every year for ploughing our veg garden since my Dad bought it in the early 80's.  My Dad dismantled the tractor in an attempt to try and see if it could be repaired, but eventually lost interest, as the tractor wasn't the easiest machine for my Dad to handle (now in his mid 70's).
My Dad informs me that the rest of the parts not shown in the photo's are somewhere safe, he just can't remember where exactlyIm%20most%20amused%20today!
So, assuming we can find the missing bits, does anyone have an exploded parts diagram of the machine or pictures of a similar tractor so I can work out how everything goes back together and determine if there is anything missing?
The Norton engine did run without any problems up until the transmission packed in.  Could anyone clarify what model of engine it is, so I can track down a manual/parts book for it?  I have been unable to locate any serial numbers on the engine itself, but it is encrusted in decades of congealed oil and dirt.  If anyone knows where to find the engine number, please let me know.
The tractor number is 10739 if this helps.
 
Cheers,
 
Sean
 
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Charlie
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Quote Charlie Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2012 at 1:29pm
Welcome to the forum. There are a number of Trusty 'experts' on the forum and more in the club. I am sure one will soon answer some if not all of your questions.
I think you will need to drag all the bits from their various hiding places and lay them out to see what is missing, not 100% clear from your photo's.
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Quote Martinh Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2012 at 9:39pm
Sean

Pork pies may helpful iin your quest  . Obie One , the Crusty one !!
Martin. The Village Idiot
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2012 at 7:41pm
Have moved the Trusty from the nettle patch that it has inhabited for the last decade and made a start at stripping it down.  We have also found all the parts that were removed.
 
Decided to start with the engine, which turns over freely.  On closer inspection, the reason the engine is so caked in oily dirt is a cracked tappet access cover.
 
 
This has had the positive affect of keeping all the fixing bolts well lubricated, so everything is coming apart very easily Im%20most%20amused%20today!.
 
Also, the engine has been fitted with a Villiers carb and air filter.
  
Trusty Bloke has kindly supplied me with a Norton Big 4 manual for the 597cc motor, which list the carb as being an AMAL 276AT.  The only details I have found so far for my engine, which is the earlier 633cc model, is on this website http://www.wdnorton.nl/Contents_page.htm, which lists the carb as being an AMAL 276/011.  Is there any difference between the two?  Can anyone recommend any alternative carbs (that is assuming the current Villiers one is either past it's best or unsuitable for the engine).
 
The next hurdle to overcome is removing the clutch.
 
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 6:56pm
Could not budge the clutch, which seems to be different from what is shown in the detail already supplied by TrustyBloke.  TrustyBloke is already on the case, so have decided to strip the engine.
 
I have to admit that there is something satisfying about finding labels and numbers previously hidden under decades of muck.
 
 
With the cylinder block removed, I was pleasantly surprised to see a spotlessly clean bore, although the spark plug has corroded in the cylinder head.
 
 
The timing cover was a pig to get off.  The cheese head screws have obviously not budged in a long time.  Does anyone know what thread the timing case screws are, as I would prefer to replace them with something like a button head cap screw.
 
 
Once inside the timing case, all seems to be in excellent shape, with no play at all on anything and hardly any wear on the gears.
 
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trusty220
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Quote trusty220 Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2012 at 9:21pm
The clutch on the Norton engined Trusty was different to all the others, and was fixed on in a similar manner to the pedal arms on a push-bike.
You will find that there is a nut sticking out of the clutch carrier with a thread disappearing inside and a circular depression on the other side where you think the bolt head should be.
To dismantle all you need to do is to remove the nut and tap the thread gently with a hammer to release it; you can then pull the carrier off the crankshaft.
Once it's apart you will see that the nut pulls two tapered wedges into contact with the side of the crankshaft and clamps everything together- quite effective, really.
Hope that helps!
Geoff
To infinity and beyond, but always back by 5 o'clock.
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Phil Somers
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Quote Phil Somers Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2012 at 9:59am
Hi Busman,
try attaching your pics by copying the IMG file and pasting this. Your picture should then automatically appear in your thread.

Phil
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2012 at 6:26pm
Thanks for the clutch info Geoff, will give this a try as soon as possible.
 
I have edited my previous posts, by inserting all photo's directly, rather than linking to my photobucket album, just in case the photobucket links are giving people problems.
 
Cheers,
 
Sean
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enginear
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Quote enginear Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2012 at 8:01pm
If you contact the Vintage m/cycle club they have the amal records and will be able to tell the difference on the carbs, it will possibly be the choke as in carb intake diameter size ,i think you will find it rather expensive to fit an original carb as these are making stupid money.
simple
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Trusty Bloke
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Quote Trusty Bloke Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2012 at 9:41pm
 
You might have some joy with Surrey Amal.
They do stock some early carbs (maybe not this one though)
but might be helpful for advice and some parts
 
A drink's too wet without one ;-) - Southampton
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Quote will_haggle Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2012 at 10:39pm
It might help to have a look at the Norton Owners Club site....
http://www.nortonownersclub.org/models/sngle-cylinder/side-valve
6 months ago I couldn't even spell engineer - now I are one
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2012 at 6:11pm
Thanks for the comments so far.  I will see what info I can get regarding the carb.
Thanks for the info on how to get the clutch off Geoff.  Did exactly as you said and managed to remove the stud.  Unfortunately, the clutch still wouldn't budge and don't have a set of gear pullers yet.  Hopefully, once I have got the pullers, they will shift it.
Have removed the cylinder head in preparation for cleaning.
 
 
 
I am considering having them water blasted.  Has anyone had experience of this and what the end results were.  Is it worth it, or should I just stick with a wire brush and lots of elbow grease!!
 
Have also had a closer look at the magneto.  The eagle-eyed Wico magneto experts amongst you will notice from the picture below that it is of clockwise rotation.  The trip arm latches on the impulse stop when rotated clockwise.
 
 
Can anyone with a Norton engined Trusty confirm that the mag does rotate clockwise.
Also how do you get the drive cup off.  In a service manual downloaded from http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/WicoMagneto/MagData4.htm, it details how this should be done, but I am having no joy.  Any advice would be appreciated.
Does my magneto drive sprocket look OK?  Looks alright to me, but as I haven't seen a new one, I am not sure if the teeth are worn or not.
 
 
Finally, am thinking of getting a new head gasket made by http://www.easeals.co.uk/vintageparts.html.
Anyone used them before, or recommend anyone else?
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trusty220
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Quote trusty220 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2012 at 9:52pm
I can confirm that the mag does turn clockwise as you look at the drive sprocket.
What I don't know is how it comes off- I tried with mine and couldn't, but managed to get it all working without taking the impulse apart so I left it alone.
The most important thing to do once you've put it back together is to put a cover over the impulse. It is situated exactly under the carb, and every time you flood the carb to do a cold start it pours petrol on the mag and washes all the lubrication out of it.
The teeth on the sprocket look OK to use again, so I wouldn't worry about changing it.
It's always worth trying a few of the traders in Old Bike Mart for the gasket set and head gasket. Certainly easier than having a new head gasket made, anyway. You could certainly get a complete gasket set for the Norton Big Four in the 90's that wasn't a lot of money, so I'd go down that route.
Just beware that there are two versions- one has a single piece valve chest and barrel (like yours) and the Big Four that was fitted to the Steed Mk2 had a separate aluminium cast valve chest that was clamped down by the barrel.
Best of luck with it.
Geoff
To infinity and beyond, but always back by 5 o'clock.
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 03 Jun 2012 at 11:56am

Managed to remove the clutch at last!! Invested in a set of 6 inch, 3 leg gear pullers. Had considered making a heath robinson puller, but in the end was glad I didn't, as it took a long piece of tube on the end of the wrench to apply enough force to get the clutch moving.

 

 

The broken lug on the clutch driver had been bolted in place by the previous owner, so I am now on the look out for a replacement. If I don't manage to find one, I still have the broken bit of the lug and maybe find someone expert at welding cast iron.

Also, the clutch drum has received some interesting modifications!!

 

 

Only one of the holes penetrates through the drum. This lined up with the studs holding the clutch arms to the driver. Obviously, I am not the only one who has had problems getting the clutch off. Would I be right in thinking that the drum is also cast iron and therefore possible to fill the holes in with weld, rather than need to replace?

 

My Dad found an old ice cream tub containing some carburettors, one of which is an Amal. Has the numbers 124/131 stamped on it. Would this be appropriate for use on the Norton engine?

 
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ade1982
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Quote ade1982 Replybullet Posted: 03 Jun 2012 at 5:02pm
im a bit late on this tread but id stick to the carb you have if you speak to surrey carbs they have spares and they are fairly straight forward my steed which is a norton has a 225/7 carb which is the older version of the 276, i had to machine new bushes for the trottle but works well now and didnt have to replace any parts. with your clutch id send it of to a specialist cast welder as i had bits welded like the draw bar and clutch and they are a very funny metal hope this helps
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Trusty Mad
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Quote Trusty Mad Replybullet Posted: 03 Jun 2012 at 10:10pm
if you PM me your email i can send you a copy of the trusty spare parts book so you can check what bits you have and weather you are missing anything. i also have a cutaway diagram of the tractor somewhere i can send you if i can find it.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
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Quote trusty220 Replybullet Posted: 06 Jun 2012 at 7:47am
The correct one should have a vertical spindle, not a horizontal one, so you may have some difficulty in getting this one to fit. I will have my Norton Trusty at the rally at Astwood Bank, Redditch at the weekend so I'll take some pictures of the carb then for you.
To infinity and beyond, but always back by 5 o'clock.
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charliesfergy
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Quote charliesfergy Replybullet Posted: 06 Jun 2012 at 8:49am
I think the one you have there is an amal monoblock, i have a spare and will check if ti's a vertical or horizontal shaft
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 06 Jun 2012 at 9:34pm
Thanks for the info chaps.
 
I have almost got the bottom end of the engine cleaned up.  Would anyone know if there should be a gasket between the two crankcase halves.  When I separated the crankcase, I could find no trace of there ever being a gasket.  In the manual for the later 596cc Big 4, there is no mention of a gasket, so I assume this is also the case for the 633cc motor.
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 17 Jun 2012 at 7:14pm
After much scrubbing and wire brushing, have at last got the decades of filth cleaned from the crankcase.
 
 
 
I am a little concerned at the amount of wear on the crankcase due to the 4 bolt heads on the clutch drum sprocket grinding away at the casing.  There is only about of millimeter of metal left between the outside world and the crank bearing.
 
 
I think I will cobble together some kind of wear plate to sit between the crankcase and clutch sprocket.
Took the opportunity to gap the piston rings.
 
 
Gap measures 0.057"Shocked, which is a tad larger than the 0.030" stated in the manual.  I already have a set of +0.030" piston rings for a 596cc Big 4 engine, just in case they would also fit the 633cc Big 4, as the bores are identical.  Unfortunately, the rings for the 596cc motor are much thinner in cross section, so I am now on the look out for a set of suitable piston rings.
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Quote ransomesmg6 Replybullet Posted: 17 Jun 2012 at 8:24pm
Welding cast isn't too bad, the few times i have done it, it seems to have penetrated well. Have a go!
Looks like its cleaning up well- looking forward to seeing the project progress
Remember!!
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 5:38pm
Recently bought a set of piston rings for a BSA M20/M21 motorcycle, in the hope that they may fit the Norton, as both engines share the same bore.  The compression rings are identical, except that the ends of the Norton rings are cut at a 45 degree angle.
 
 
As for the scraper ring, this is slightly different.  The thickness is the same, being 1/8", but the BSA ring is slightly deeper in cross section.  The original Norton scraper ring is a very loose fit in the piston groove, presumably to allow oil to pass through the holes in the ring and piston (although the groove on my piston was full of carbon and congealed oil!!).  The BSA ring is a tighter fit, although there is still a gap between the inside face of the ring and the piston groove.  I think it should be OK, unless anyone knows different.
 
 
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 21 Jul 2012 at 9:49pm
Am almost ready to start reassembling the engine and have also made a start on replacing some of the steelwork that is past saving.
 
Does anyone know a reasonable colour match for 'Trusty Green'?
 
Also, what brands of paint can you recommend (assuming mentioning brand names is OK)?  I don't have any spraying equipment, so I will be using aerosol rattle cans and/or brush paint.
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Geoff78
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Quote Geoff78 Replybullet Posted: 23 Jul 2012 at 9:25am
Did you manage to weld the lug up on your clutch?
I have the same problem with mine but its the lug at the back where it clamps to the crank shaft that's broken off.

Looking forward to your next progress report.
Geoff.
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Quote Charlie Replybullet Posted: 23 Jul 2012 at 2:45pm
Years ago I broke the lug at the back on my Trusty clutch and got it welded without any problems.
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 23 Jul 2012 at 3:23pm
I may be misunderstanding you but does this "Only one of the holes penetrates through the drum. This lined up with the studs holding the clutch arms to the driver. Obviously, I am not the only one who has had problems getting the clutch off. Would I be right in thinking that the drum is also cast iron and therefore possible to fill the holes in with weld, rather than need to replace?" refer to the multiple blind holes? I would guess they they were done at manufacture to balance the assembly - just a thought!
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 23 Jul 2012 at 6:44pm
I too thought that the blind holes must have been done to balance the drum.  The only thing is, I have never seen another like this.  If anyone else has seen this done on a Trusty clutch drum, please let me know.
 
I have not had the clutch driver repaired yet.  Have been quoted 60 exc VAT to weld the lug back on with no guarantee that the weld will hold.
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Geoff78
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Quote Geoff78 Replybullet Posted: 23 Jul 2012 at 8:48pm
Sean,

That seems like a lot of money to not receive some kind of guarantee.
I always thought to weld cast iron you had to slowly heat both bits to a dull red, then carry out the welding. once welded the job was left to cool naturally prevent any stress forming in the metal.
I wonder what it would cost to have a casting company make a pattern and have a batch of them cast and machined

For the record Sean, my drum does not have holes in it either.

Geoff.
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Quote wristpin Replybullet Posted: 23 Jul 2012 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Geoff78

Sean,

That seems like a lot of money to not receive some kind of guarantee.
I always thought to weld cast iron you had to slowly heat both bits to a dull red, then carry out the welding. once welded the job was left to cool naturally prevent any stress forming in the metal.
I wonder what it would cost to have a casting company make a pattern and have a batch of them cast and machined

For the record Sean, my drum does not have holes in it either.

Geoff.

They  used to bury the finished job in sand or some such to slow down the rate of cooling even more . Seen some diy efforts at welding cast iron - looks fine until you hear a ping as it cools and cracks! There are some very good (and expensive) rods for manual arc welding of cast and a clued up specialist welding outfit should stand a fair chance of getting it right. I once employed a guy  who had worked in the now shut local REME depot where they reconditioned Land Rover engines and he had spent most of his time welding patches into cylinder blocks where they had put a leg out . I'm not into LRs but apparently there was one engine that was very prone to doing this when given the squaddie treatment!
 I have successfully brazed clean cast iron as the lower temperature does not stress it so much as welding.
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Quote Kania2000 Replybullet Posted: 24 Jul 2012 at 10:30am
I have succesfully welded many cast iron items whilst working with agricultural machinery.
Not a fast process, we would clean and prepare the item and them place them in the forge to bring them upto temperature. Items up to about 6mm we would gas weld, (filler stick should never leave the weld pool) above that we would arc weld. The last electrodes I purchased in the late 90's worked out at 6 each.
During the welding process we would maintain the heating. Once the welding was completed we would return the item to the forge and allow the welded item to cool slowly (12 hours) and keep it out of any drafts.
And yes we have all heard that ping and had a few failures.
Not all cast iron will weld, best way to check is with a spark test on the grinder short patern will usally weld and long drawn out patern will not normally be successful.
Sorry to be long winded but 60 sound ok for a proper job.
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 29 Jul 2012 at 2:24pm
Got the main engine bits reassembled. Notice the dodgy welding on one of the engine brackets (not by me I hasten to add LOL).
The engine has at some point in the past been overhauled before. Once the piston had been cleaned up, I found the numbers 0.030 stamped into the surface, which obviously indicates an oversize piston has been fitted. Also, the head gasket was upside down. The copper surface should be to the cylinder barrel face, whereas mine was copper surface to the cylinder head. Also discovered that one of the cylinder head nuts was upside down. The eagle eyed among you may be able to spot it in one of the earlier photos.
The BSA M20 piston rings fitted without any problems.
 
 
The only fly in the ointment has been removing the magneto drive sprocket from the inlet timing gear.
 
 
The manual shows that the sprocket is pressed onto a taper shaft and keyway.  A crowbar like tool is shown being hooked around the back of the sprocket.  It then states "A sharp blow on the end of the tool, delivered by hand, will release the sprocket".  Yeah, right!!!!  After two days of pulling, pressing, bashing and heating, I still can't budge it.  I may have to resort to trying to set the timing with the inlet timing gear still attached to the cover.
 
As I am currently getting various items fabricated, could any of you Norton Trusty owners send me photos of your air cleaners and exhaust systems.  Mine simply had a vertical piece of pipe for an exhaust, which although sounding great, was a little on the loud side Smile.  Also, any paint colour/type info would be greatly received.
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 05 Aug 2012 at 6:01pm
Recently acquired a Amal 225/016 carb. Appears to be complete apart from the float bowl. Does anyone know if Amal float bowls are unique to each carb, or are they are generic part, e.g. would a float bowl from a 276 type carb fit?
Also, can anyone advise what the various screws do in the picture below. I assume that A controls idle speed and B controls fuel flow.
 
 
Also does anyone know what the thread is on the part in the photo below.  The thread in the carb could do with a tap running through to give it a clean up.
 
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Busman
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Quote Busman Replybullet Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 4:37pm
Does anyone know what the purpose is of the fitting shown in the photo below.  It contains a ball valve, so could it be a crankcase breather?  Motorcycle versions of this engine don't appear to have one.  Originally there was a short stub of broken copper pipe attached to it, so it must have been connected to something.
 
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Quote charliesfergy Replybullet Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 8:57pm
On the trustys, The jap's mainly had the breather pipe going into the gearbox and lubricated the dog clutches, good idea but i don't know how well it worked.
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Quote will_haggle Replybullet Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by charliesfergy

I think the one you have there is an amal monoblock, i have a spare and will check if ti's a vertical or horizontal shaft


It won't be a Monoblock, they had a slide and a built in float chamber. I doubt they would have been used on any garden machines as it would have been difficult to govern them....
6 months ago I couldn't even spell engineer - now I are one
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